Curse

TwinRaven · Jul 10, 2006, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Cant seem to get edit to work on my last post so here's ANOTHER reply on another thred (that took me no time to find without the search button...in the BUILDS section:

Quote:

I've been playing a touchie since I deleted my first ranger Twin Raven...a nice little R/E that seemed fun at the time. My "new" ranger/nec is a wee bit over nine months old and I've been snatching life away from folks since I started it. Over time I've rearranged skills until I found just the right combo. With the addition of Vampiric Bite, it's true I can snatch away an extra 15 health every 2 seconds, but it costs me an extra 3 energy...a fair trade...no more powerful than before.

Problem is...this little build of mine (not taking credit, I play my own variation though) has come under fire. I've defended it and offered strategies to beat it for weeks...here again, though is yet another thread crying nerf: the main whining coming from wariors because they stand there swinging away at air never ONCE thinking about using the survival instincts God gave an ant :RUN AWAY!!!!

SERIOUSLY: read through Gladiator and use the search...you'll find all kinds of info and strategy...QUIT whining "nerf it" You folks who can't think around a build piss me off...first my necro gets the nerf-bat, now you wanna do the same to my ranger...the only classes I play with any joy. Can't get into a group to save my life for months when the game started...I paid my freakin' dues and now someone wants to nerf it because lo and behold, what I have been doing for 3/4 of the time I've played (not including beta) is too hard for some brainless tank to counter...try putting some defensive strategy into play, this isn't whack-a-mole!

I respect the opinions of players who are willing to debate and offer insight, but dropping in " yeah make em spells...only solution" is obviously the same dipstick, follow the leader, lemming-like behavior that makes people drive SUVs as commuter cars because they want to BELONG to something...the world has enough yes-men, so please add something unique and thoughtful to the thread or STHU!

JR- You said it...don't suck and you can beat a touchie.

Nine months of playing one and I can tell you what kills em off...energy denial, diversion (not not NOT NOT NOOOOOOTTTTTT...blackout...god I HATE when people don't read the thread and chime in with what has already been mentioned as worthless)....multiple conditions and heavy degen on top of diversion and e-denial will make them drop...stay out of range....cripple and run after a knock-down...kiting help (even dumbass warriors should know when to kite...NOT whine nerf when they are to damned stupid to pull their ass outta the fire)...multiple knockdowns are hard to deal with as well.<please note: dumbass warriors are a classification of warrior...not all warriors...there IS a disticntion>

EVERY build has a counter build, even touchies. I've had my ass dropped unexpectedly and expectedly by every profession...sometimes in combinations ( a mesmer and warrior together = ouchie). A warrior can't get mad if there is a build that can kill them...a tanker should not be the ONLY build that can withstand a beating.

Touch rangers are unique, but limited and run out of energy after one victim or so (even with good gear)...after one member of your party drops, gang up on the touchie...almost always gets me at the end of my mana supply and I have to run (ESCAPE is my prefered...not storm chaser or dodge...obviously mentioned by people who don't play a touchie or play a lame one IMO). Facing more than one? CALL TARGETS and bring res sigs...drop them often enough and the team with the most res wins!!!

Pardon the rant...just play the freakin' game and LEARN to deal with the builds as they come along...remember when you were scared of air-spikers?*mocking trembles* Consider who you attack in the game...the soft targets right? As it happens, warriors are soft targets for the touchie...learn to deal with it...tankers are NOT always at the top of the foodchain...they did away with that term...it's called the food web...it's a balance.

I can think of all the times an air-spiker, interrupt ranger or mesmer killed off my necro...I didn't bitch or cry nerf once...I bit my lip, typed "gg" and rethought my build...for all you "nerf" whiners...I suggest you do the same.

There's a couple more and a posting on how to build one...just quit bickering already...for crying out loud *flabberghasted kuffuffalation*

Mr_eX · Jul 10, 2006, 06:05 PM // 18:05

I've been playing Aspenwood for a few weeks now, and just yesterday I ran into my first touch ranger. Unfortunately, I was on my Warrior and I had never faced a toucher before, so I decided to meet him head on with my Dragon Slash adrenal spike. I did some damage and put Deep Wound on him, but he took me down first, even though he died shortly thereafter.

If I had been in the same situation with my necro, if that same touch ranger had any brains, he would run away, because I would have given him 9 degen and lots of Discord spam. Similar story with my mesmer, except it'd be even easier--10 degen, deep wound, and assorted armor-ignoring damage.

Touch rangers are powerful, but are by no means invincible. Just because it's easy to assemble and play doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. However, some people have pointed out that the touch skills aren't attack skills and shouldn't be affected by Expertise, and I agree. Hopefully this will be addressed in an upcoming skill update.

MelechRic · Jul 10, 2006, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theus

Crippling Shot cant be blocked or evaded.Your post fails.

Do I sense sarcasm or condescension?

My non-touch R/N with Cripple Shot and Rigor Mortis lays waste to touchers.

TwinRaven · Jul 10, 2006, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_eX

I've been playing Aspenwood for a few weeks now, and just yesterday I ran into my first touch ranger. Unfortunately, I was on my Warrior and I had never faced a toucher before, so I decided to meet him head on with my Dragon Slash adrenal spike. I did some damage and put Deep Wound on him, but he took me down first, even though he died shortly thereafter.

Your mistake, here, was putting a condition on the touch ranger...Plague Touch sends it back to you...without the deep wound on you, you might have died AFTER the Toucher

Quote:

Touch rangers are powerful, but are by no means invincible. Just because it's easy to assemble and play doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed.

There is a cookie-cutter version of the toucher...I don't use it...I use a variation I came up with on my own that suits me just fine...easy to come up with? Maybe...but long before there was Vamp Bite and before so many folks started using the build...

Quote:

However, some people have pointed out that the touch skills aren't attack skills and shouldn't be affected by Expertise, and I agree. Hopefully this will be addressed in an upcoming skill update.

I'm trying to figure out what seems a contradiction in this paragraph though...You suggest they don't need to be nerfed in the first part and then say you agree to a nerf in the second...Saying that non-attack skills should not be affected by expertise completely screws ALL rangers...all stances, calls and spirits costing full energy? Don't be rediculous. However, since you said "touch" skills...I assume you mean necro "skills" should be somehow turned into spells? So you penalize the necro who wants to counter mesmer/ranger attacks that affect spells by having a skill as backup? Nerf the necro? Again...don't be rediculous...my blood necro relies on skills being SKILLS.

Dart · Jul 10, 2006, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinRaven

There's a couple more and a posting on how to build one...just quit bickering already...for crying out loud *flabberghasted kuffuffalation*

Well said TwinRaven... I play monk and warrior in AB, I love the new challenge this build has added to the game, who wants same old stuff everytime??? not me - finding a counter was a great challenge and trying to shut down touch rangers has been fun

now when i see them they become a prime targ

GG

Mr_eX · Jul 10, 2006, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinRaven

Your mistake, here, was putting a condition on the touch ranger...Plague Touch sends it back to you...without the deep wound on you, you might have died AFTER the Toucher

He didn't, or I would've just plague touched it back to him.

He died because he didn't get rid of the deep wound.

Edit: According to its description, Expertise should only affect Stances, Traps, and attack skills (i.e. bow attack axe attack, etc.) Vampiric Touch, for example, isn't an attack skill, it's simply a skill. I'm not saying it should be made into a spell, just that it shouldn't be affected by expertise because it isn't an attack skill.

Edit2: Turns out I'm completely wrong about Expertise's description. It says "Attack skills, preparations, and traps." That doesn't include Stances, non-attack skills, rituals, etc. Expertise's description needs to be clarified, which sort of makes the "Vampiric Touch isn't an attack skill and shouldn't be affected by expertise" argument invalid.

Russell.Crowe · Jul 10, 2006, 07:08 PM // 19:08

yeah! nerf something you can't kill! that is always the smart way to go!

Just a hint: Cripple = death to touchies

C'mon, just think about it.

Loki Seiguro · Jul 10, 2006, 07:27 PM // 19:27

ugh plz stop trying to touch rangers..

if i was an admin i would ban people that post stuff like this.

stop complaining about touchers and make a build that can counter it. - diversion comes to mind....

Miyamoto Tzu · Jul 10, 2006, 07:38 PM // 19:38

I too believe that touch rangers are imbalanced and overused due to obvious advantages over a large percentage of the other builds in the game.

As has been pointed out there are definitely counters available and most professions will have a few skills that can be used effectively against the toucher but not everyone wants to switch their secondary to Mesmer in order to become a proficient touch buster.

I am hoping that the obvious inconsistencies between skill descriptions and the practical implementation of these skills in the game will be addressed in order to even the playing field a bit. The touch ranger does not need to be nerfed into obselescence but should be toned down.

At one point I thought that using SoJ against touchers would be an interesting approach...kd with some dmg coupled with skills that add dmg vs. kd'd opponents should have worked nicely but alas, being "Touched" and "Bitten" did not seem to be "physical attacks" as specified by SoJ.

I've run into many instances where one touch ranger has tied up a whole AB squad for more time than any one build should be able to against four opponents of the same levels. I would expect this type of resilience from a lvl 28 or 30 PvE mob driven by AI but not a lvl 20, human driven character in a PvP environment that is supposedly well balanced.

IMHO, ANet has allowed this build to flourish because of its obvious popularity and the fact that it keeps people playing GW to a certain extent. In The Scribe they have hinted at the possibility of toning the toucher down and I think its a modification that is long overdue.

Tzu

Navaros · Jul 10, 2006, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miyamoto Tzu

I too believe that touch rangers are imbalanced and overused due to obvious advantages over a large percentage of the other builds in the game.

As has been pointed out there are definitely counters available and most professions will have a few skills that can be used effectively against the toucher but not everyone wants to switch their secondary to Mesmer in order to become a proficient touch buster.

I am hoping that the obvious inconsistencies between skill descriptions and the practical implementation of these skills in the game will be addressed in order to even the playing field a bit. The touch ranger does not need to be nerfed into obselescence but should be toned down.

At one point I thought that using SoJ against touchers would be an interesting approach...kd with some dmg coupled with skills that add dmg vs. kd'd opponents should have worked nicely but alas, being "Touched" and "Bitten" did not seem to be "physical attacks" as specified by SoJ.

I've run into many instances where one touch ranger has tied up a whole AB squad for more time than any one build should be able to against four opponents of the same levels. I would expect this type of resilience from a lvl 28 or 30 PvE mob driven by AI but not a lvl 20, human driven character in a PvP environment that is supposedly well balanced.

IMHO, ANet has allowed this build to flourish because of its obvious popularity and the fact that it keeps people playing GW to a certain extent. In The Scribe they have hinted at the possibility of toning the toucher down and I think its a modification that is long overdue.

Tzu

I love how so many people assume that because the Scribe said something to the effect of "maybe some day there will be a perfect counter to Touch Rangers" that equates into "Anet must come nerf the Touch Rangers because no reasonable counters to them now exist."

The problem you came into with 4 players not being able to kill 1 Toucher is that you had a bad party, and/or a badly-equipped bad party. Either way, if your party didn't bring the skills to take him down, that is solely your party's own fault. It does not give a valid reason to nerf Touch Rangers.

One individual player is not supposed to be able to beat any other build in the game. Touch Rangers are anti-Warrior builds usually, hence a Warrior should not expect to be able to take one down. No more than a Monk should expect to be able to take a Warrior down. Guild Wars is balanced for team play, not individual play.

If Alex Weekes is to be believed, then Anet will not nerf Touch Rangers. Alex Weekes posted that balanced things are not nerfed due to "popular demand". Well, I'm taking that post of his and making Touch Rangers be "the litmus test". If Touch Rangers do indeed get nerfed it will be based solely on "popular demand", not for any legitimate reason.

aron searle · Jul 10, 2006, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miyamoto Tzu

At one point I thought that using SoJ against touchers would be an interesting approach

Cough

Quote:

I've run into many instances where one touch ranger has tied up a whole AB squad for more time than any one build should be able to against four opponents of the same levels. I would expect this type of resilience from a lvl 28 or 30 PvE mob driven by AI but not a lvl 20, human driven character in a PvP environment that is supposedly well balanced.

Ive taken a premade palidan into randoms and as the last man standing they were unable to kill me, healing hands needs nerfing.

My healer/smite monk once took on 4 in aspenwood, they didnt have the right counters, Monks need nerfing.

I saw an MM take on 3 people in aspenwood and flatten them, MM's need nerfing.

My ranger once sniped over the balcony in aspenwood, killing the same 3-4 people 20 times, rangers shouldnt have bow attacks, they need nerfing.

Ive seen warriors unable to do any damage to mesmers, mesmers need nerfing.

/sarcasm

I love touch rangers, most of them just stand there spamming whilst you get ready to chain some attacks that will kill them.

Boofhead · Jul 10, 2006, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Touch rangers are free faction. QQ more, nubs.

WLlama · Jul 10, 2006, 09:02 PM // 21:02

If you (or your class) doesn't have a direct counter to touch, kite while the rest of your team hits the ranger. The toucher won't be able to keep up with the damage due to the inability to vamp touch and will die. This technique works with any group/builds so no more worries. (Yes, I know that touchers often include speed skills but that usually only gains them one or two touches during the chase, so don't stop kiting.)

On the other hand, a lot of the counters for touchers work on other classes to so you aren't building just for touchers...

Helll is for Heroes · Jul 10, 2006, 09:07 PM // 21:07

If you cant counter touch rangers, you dont deserve the liberty of moaning.

Shendaar · Jul 10, 2006, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

Maybe you missed the many other times this has been mentioned - they used to be spells and aint gonna get put back.

Oh I did not miss a single thing. I didn't know they used to be spells, but either way, what happens to them is out of your control I'm afraid.

TwinRaven · Jul 10, 2006, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

from Mr eX:...Turns out I'm completely wrong about Expertise's description. It says "Attack skills, preparations, and traps." That doesn't include Stances, non-attack skills, rituals, etc. Expertise's description needs to be clarified, which sort of makes the "Vampiric Touch isn't an attack skill and shouldn't be affected by expertise" argument invalid.

"Expertise reduces the energy costs of all non-spell skills from any profession at a rate of 4% per point. This is contrary to the in-game description which claims it only applies to "Attack skills, Preparations and Traps"~Guildwiki

I agree the description needs to be clarified...but its function should NOT be changed. There are simply too many builds that use skills from other professions...nerf the use of skills from other professions and you nerf ALOT of ranger builds...You may as well say to rangers..."play your primary profession...nothing else" and we can all wave "bye-bye" to a large peice of the ranger's versatility...

Bunny Thumpers, Ra/W runners, Ra/Rt spirit Spammers, Ra/Mo and others would all take a hit.

{IceFire} · Jul 11, 2006, 01:07 AM // 01:07

touch=iway for RA

quanzong · Jul 11, 2006, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Touch rangers should be banned, because they allways in alliance battles sitting there for a warrior to come by.

AND its just a matter of time before they make TOUCH MESMERS when they find out how to use Vamp Touch and Echo together.... DANGEROUS, +60ish damage OVER AND OVER until you drop dead... YIKES

They need to serious mod some skills 4 real

shadowfell · Jul 11, 2006, 05:36 AM // 05:36

It's kind of fun to play the kurz side of ab's and naturally, the luxon side is -full- of mm and touchies. I generally play as ranger and showing them how a real ranger is played, we win every time.

Russell.Crowe · Jul 11, 2006, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by quanzong

Touch rangers should be banned, because they allways in alliance battles sitting there for a warrior to come by.

AND its just a matter of time before they make TOUCH MESMERS when they find out how to use Vamp Touch and Echo together.... DANGEROUS, +60ish damage OVER AND OVER until you drop dead... YIKES

They need to serious mod some skills 4 real

... because they should ban all people that use skills. Also, a touch mesmer would be stupid and wouldn't be effective. BTW echo wouldn't work because touches are skills not spells.

P.S. they don't need to mod anything, people just need to mod their builds in order to prevent against them.